Talk:Toledoth Yeshu

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to navigation Jump to search

Someone listed this for cleanup. I had the temerity of adding the required cleanup notice. I've personally never heard of the work - can you make any pronouncements as to its influence? Is anything known of its author? JFW | T@lk 12:12, 16 May 2004 (UTC)

I copied that text almost directly form another wiki article to start a stub on the subject. Unfortunately I only know that it is an adult satirical/cautionary tale against would-be false messiahs combining many a varied reference from the Mishnah dating from the 2ndC.BCE to the 5thC.CE and apparently including some references to the scriptures of the you know who. In all it includes 25 short traditions dating back perhaps as far as the 6th century merged into one narrative in the 12th century. I do not know who the author was but probably anonymous. Maybe it was even written by a chrstian as anti-Jewish propaganda. I have never seen an objective study on the work. Many chrstians have also jumped upon it as an independent historical confirmation on the existence of their ManG-d from an albeit hostile source. However it is anything but historical. It changes the details mentioned in the mishnah to fit with the narrative and is not considered part of the mishnah though many anti-Judaists love to use it on the ignorant to defame the mishnah (which is the kind of site you will find it mentioned on most frequently). It is for these reasons I thought it would be a good idea to start a stub about it to work on and cut through the varied POVs on the subject. I only made it yesterday so User:Burgundavia must be a very dilligent newcommer. The only possible references to the historical personality behind the man the chrstians worship might be the two about Yeshu Pandera taken from Tosefta Hullin 2: 22-24 concerning the arrest and death of Rabbi Eliazer. Also Shabbath 104b insinuates that the same Pandera was the illegitimate father of a certain young mamzer student of R. Eliazer known as Plony Ben Stada (Stada being a certain Marym Magdalen who was apparently already married to someone called Paphos ben Yehuda). Zestauferov 09:26, 17 May 2004 (UTC)

I hope to make a start on this a little later.Zestauferov 09:31, 17 May 2004 (UTC)

Some of the 26 themes are repeated in the story. They include

  1. 3671 (91BCE) disaster in the days of King Jannaeus (103-76BCE) (origin=)
  2. Miriam & Soldier Joseph Pandera (origin=Mandaean/Celsus)
  3. Rabban Simeon ben Shetach's records (80-50 BCE) (origin= Mishnah Yevamot 4:18?)
  4. Mamzer plony Ben Stada descended from Pandera (origin=Talmud Shabbat 104b, Sanhedrin 67a)
  5. Moses not the greatest (origin=)
  6. The Name in the temple at the time of Queen Helene (early 1st C.BCE) (origin=)
  7. Mamzer Ben Stada cuts letters into his thigh (origin=Talmud Shabbat 104b, Sanhedrin 67a)
  8. Getting The Name past the lions (origin=)
  9. Followed as Messiah by 310 men (origin=)
  10. Enters Jerusalem on an ass (origin=)
  11. Accused before the Ruler (origin=)
  12. Royal support against those who accuse him of being Navi Sheker (origin=)
  13. Ananui & Ahazia report many signs to the ruler (origin=)
  14. Judah Iskarioto makes Yeshu forget The Name (origin=)
  15. Crucified at Tiberias (origin=)
  16. Escape to Antioch (origin=)
  17. Entering the temple with 310 men before passover (origin=)
  18. Judah Iskarioto's betrayal (origin=)
  19. The trial of Ha Notzri & his Disciples (origin= Talmud Sanhedrin 43a)
  20. Put to death on a carob stalk (origin=European Mythological Archetype)
  21. Burried before Sabbath (origin)
  22. Missing body (origin=)
  23. Rabbi Tanhuma Bar Abba 5thC appeases the Ruler (origin=)
  24. Division in Israel because of the Wicked Teacher(origin=Essene)
  25. The Disciples preach abroad (origin=)
  26. Simon Kepha the man behind Paul (origin=)

Explain[edit]

At least, there should be a initial paragraph saying something like:

The Toledoth Yeshu is a book written in Hebrew in the city of Toledo, Spain (or wherever) in the nth century by an anonymous rabbi. It has n short chapters.

I mean, the article seems written for people who already know all about the work. Most of mankind don't know a bit about the book. Explain us.